4.01.2006

WELL, YOU CAN CALL YOURSELF A POET ALL YOU LIKE, BUT EVERYONE KNOWS YOU’RE A BUREAUCRAT, SO —

Tamil Tiger
FLARF THIS, YOU
FUCKING YUPPIE


(Tamil Tigers get very pissed off when gringos disrespect working people.)

Look, no way we’re trying to make anybody feel ashamed. We want poets to educate themselves to a point where they can begin to see their ideological confusion clearly and unashamedly. We have every right to request that of our fellow poets. In a time like the one we live in, it behooves us to get our politics in order, and that means a lot of legwork, which always includes self-critique.

We’re very forgiving. Everybody needs a wake-up call, sometimes.

We’re not saying that poets shouldn’t use every imaginable resource when they make poems. We know the history of the Internet. We know that we’re all up to our necks in compromise.

Google away! Subvert the motherfucker, comrades! But remember that irony won’t save you.

We’re not saying that there’s no place for cultural critique in poetry. We’re saying that cultural critique without revolutionary consciousness stops short of the facts and that’s just what the ruling elites ordered.

We’re not claiming to be political activists. We’re asking our fellow poets to be careful and to think deeply and humanely about what they do. It’s been alleged often enough that poets have imaginations, so we’re asking poets to use their imaginations, if only for a moment, to wonder whether or not the lives of working people and the words they write exist to be plundered for the sake of the amusement and advancement of a clique of middle class poets.

When highly-educated (or highly self-educated) middle class poets trawl the “internet chat-room drivel” of people who can’t spell or punctuate “correctly”, are poorly educated, inarticulate, sentimental, religious fundamentalists, perhaps, confused rednecks, maybe, but no less human for all that, no less capable and deserving of love and warmth and kindness, no less deserving of a decent, humane society in which to live and work and play and love and raise children (are you able to understand that we’re talking about the majority of the global population?);
                when middle class poets do this in the service of a “poetics” — whether or not they deny the existence of a “poetics” (keep in mind that in our country and indeed all others, “poetics” is the “intellectual property” of the educated middle class; of course, Queen Mab sold like crazy to workers for decades and there’s every reason to hope that something similar will happen again to the work of a contemporary poet possessing a sophistication and radical clarity — however problematic — approaching Shelley’s, given certain conditions — Kevin Davies and Rachel Loden come to mind as possible examples);
                when middle class poets do this thing in order to produce “wrong, awkward, stumbling, semi-coherent, fucked-up, un-P.C.” (please, please, remember that one of Bill O’Reilly’s — and Ann Coulter’s — favorite epithets is “politically correct”) poems for the sake of their own amusement and then use it for their own advancement in the caste-bound world of bourgeois poetry in one of the global centers of accumulation, there’s an extremely high probability that they’re using the written language of working people (and others), unwittingly, perhaps, to reinforce their own feelings of personal, political and cultural superiority to the people whose inner lives they so witheringly mock.

“Father, forgive them” be damned: by destroying solidarity with working people, they are doing exactly and classically what the ruling elites want them to do.

All poets should try to understand that the relatively protected, ideologically hyper-conditioned petty-bourgeoisie is unable, without intellectual struggle, to see social conditions as clearly as the working poor who bear the brunt of oppression and whose lives are fully exposed to the naked economic exploitation that plunders the very fabric of human existence and deforms all moral and ethical values.

The flarfistes ought to know, but obviously have no idea that while many of the people whose words they appropriate aren’t articulate and many don’t know from irony, most can see quite clearly throughout their daily lives that something is terribly wrong with our society. If they’re unable to “theorize” or “aestheticize” or “externalize” that perception, if they’re misled by the powerful propaganda that works implacably to blind, to a greater or lesser extent, each and every citizen of the United States, it’s because working people are denied all the economic and social privileges that give the majority of middle class people (and a very small percentage of working class people) the educational resources and disposable time they need to become, for example, “experimental” poets.

Under capitalist rule, working people exist only to be exploited. The petty-bourgeoisie is instrumental in that exploitation. Over the past decade or so, the flarfistes have proven themselves to be petty-bourgeois liberals. (See What’s the matter with... liberals?, from Michael J. Smith’s Stop Me Before I Vote Again.)

Given a reasonable understanding of the above, no one would deny that the flarfistes disrespect ordinary working people in the most patronizing manner, at least some of the time. There’s no way to get one’s self out of doing it except to learn how to stop doing it.

Racism and classism ooze like a polluted aquifer through all too many poems by the flarfistes. Sexism’s there as well, for sure, to some very problematical extent, whether or not one cares to admit it. What’s worse, most of it is ornamented with a smirk (“wrong, awkward, stumbling, semi-coherent, fucked-up, un-P.C.”; “internet chat-room drivel”; “rants”; “Flarf (3) (verb): To bring out the inherent awfulness, etc., of some pre-existing text.”).

The sly, preppy, Bush-like smirk of the flarfistes is present in some of their most well-known public utterance and deflects criticism by offering up a loveless assurance. “Fellow experimental poets”, it whispers in the soothing intonations of a mass media pundit, “we know just as well as you how awful these poems are, but isn’t their deliberate and self-conscious awfulness just so amusing? After all, look at the sources from which we appropriate the raw materials for our art! We know that just like us, you’re socially and aesthetically enlightened, unlike those unsophisticated rubes who allow themselves to be gulled by Poetry.com. Anyway, we’re just having fun! What’s wrong with having a little fun? Unlike you, those other poets are simply incapable of recognizing sarcasm! Besides, what’s wrong with expressing our opinions? Everybody has the right to express their opinions”, ad nauseam. The ruling elites couldn’t ask for more effective accomplices.

If there is “no such thing as Flarf”, if “Flarf is not a movement”, then why are the flarfistes so quick to defend themselves and each other? If the flarfistes consider themselves to be leftists, which a few of them them seem to do, then why do their arguments have so little, if anything, to do with class? These contradictions are very telling.

It would have been much better if they’d heeded the “shrewd” suggestion of one of their number and kept it strictly between themselves, for anybody with a modicum of class consciousness would recognize that self-condemning smirk immediately and distance themselves from the haughtiest of the flarfistes. Unfortunately, while a certain safe, mushy, liberal “tolerance” is all the rage, class consciousness isn’t exactly rampant among poets, since the petty-bourgeoisie is by its very nature unconscious of the deepest political realities.

We’ve always wondered why certain poets bothered with poetry at all; why they didn’t earn an MBA and become middle-managers. That’s about the size of it: petty-bourgeois place-seeking and shrewd adherence to rigidly-enforced mediocrity have overwhelmed certain poets who would otherwise have given up by now.

We know how difficult it is to resist the seductive call of the petty-bourgeois intelligentsia. A young poet can all too easily make the mistake of looking up to the flarfistes and taking to heart the things they say.

One really should come clean, for even the most cynically clever irony is bound to come unraveled at some point. Most of us are deluded and our work is historically dispensable. There you have it, in a nutshell. AWP can’t help a bit.

We’re wise to you. Be careful. It’s not that we care about you even less than you care about us, but that we understand you and your motivations better than you can imagine.

Finally, to those well-meaning poets and critics who will say that we expect too much from art and artists, we respond respectfully that we’re no longer intellectually, politically or artistically willing to take such an easy a way out.

Keep in mind that while comrade Daniels was raised to be an artist and a bohemian, he spent most of his adolescence and all of his adult life (to the age of 40) sweating his days and nights away in the kitchens of fancy restaurants, hotels and private clubs that he himself still can’t and never will be able to afford to frequent. He labored to feed wonderful meals to thousands and thousands of yuppies. Sometimes they even tipped him. For years, on Sundays, during the brunch rush, he made one perfect omelette every 35 seconds for up to two hours at a time (yes, he timed himself and he was quite proud of his skills). He dutifully joined various hotel and restaurant workers’ unions when he had to, paid his dues and went to meetings, where he and his fellow workers were nickeled and dimed to death. In those days, he didn’t know how to stand up for himself. In his free time, he read voraciously, played the electric bass extremely well, tried to write good poems and self-medicated with every kind of opiate there is, plus cocaine, amphetamines and horrific draughts of hard liquor. It took him a long, long time to understand the misery in his life. When he finally did, it hurt like hell and still does, from time to time. His hands and arms were scarred by slipping knives and hot oil splashes. He’s unable to forget, ignore or forgive the brutal fact of exploitation and he detests the ruling elites, their accomplices and their toadies with every fiber of his being.

While he no longer makes his living as a cook, he’d eat most of the customers and all the union officials for breakfast. Most poets, too, if they weren’t so godawful insipid, uptight and devoid of appetizing texture. All things considered, he’d rather help them learn to cook for themselves.

Comrade Daniels has never pretended to be a theorist or a critic of any kind. He’s a self-taught artist and he admits that he’s too stubbornly proud of his auto-didacticism. He has an enormous, flinty working-class chip on his shoulder. Part of his personal struggle is to whittle away at that chip till he has an arsenal of arrowheads. Therefore, he’ll never stop learning, always with the help of others who share his convictions.

He does the best he can and has no illusions about his place in the world. He knows he’s exceedingly small potatoes and sometimes that really gets to him. But he also knows that all such considerations are beside the point. He yearns for a great-hearted, critical solidarity and his comrades give it to him, even when he’s temporarily unable to give in return.

He gets terribly frustrated when people who pretend to know better (and who really should know better) obviously don’t know shit about anything real in the world.

When he descends into confusion, he takes full reposibility for his own foibles and/ or outright failure. He’ll stand and fall with and for his comrades and their work with all his heart till the day he dies and he’s willing to go public about it. That’s why we value comrade Daniels.

We’re unable to publish your manuscripts and we’ll never, ever flatter you (that’s always been your real problem with the likes of us, hasn’t it?). We can afford to be forgiving because we accept that most people are unwilling and/ or unable to change very much until social and economic conditions force them into revolutionary self-transformation and they desire to become part of the beginning of a solution. When the conditions are right, we’ll start to organize — all of us, together, as poets. We’ll find a way to ally ourselves with working people. We’ll delight and inspire. Most of all, we’ll learn.

We feel that to gain a true comrade is the best reason for jubilation and you can count on us never going away.

April 1, 2006



Pagu in Prison
“Listen to me, people: break out of your prisons.
Break the chains that make slaves of you;
break the bars that make fools of you”.
    — Patrícia Rehder Galvão (Pagú)

79 Comments:

Blogger StandardSchaefer said...

Well Chris you know I happen to be in your corner already. But thanks anyway for posting this. Should it be passed over in silence, well, that will speak loud and clear.

9:46 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

thanks, standard

well, yeah, passed over in silence, of course, what else? understandably, no?

i think a few people might get something positive out of it, even if they don't dare admit it in public - or maybe especially if they don't dare...

take care
c

11:41 PM  
Blogger Allen said...

wouldn't it help your argument to relate your words to some actual texts? your lump monolith vision of flarf employs the assumptions and snide distance that you accuse flarf writers of.

6:55 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

A response:

http://garysullivan.blogspot.com

7:32 AM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Allen, thanks for the comment.

Well, the flarf texts are available for anybody to read. An awful lot has been written about them and the way they're produced, pro and con.

The problem with discussing the flarf texts themselves is that the flarfistes are very clever about deflecting criticism of said texts. The same thing can be said about any "experimental" poet (or group of poets).

Therefore, we're not interested in arguing the relative worth of flarf as a poetics or a poetry. That's counter-productive because it always comes down to a matter of personal preference, which is too easy a way out.

For us to focus on the texts would be a waste of time and energy, for to us, the texts are symptoms of a political attitude. We'd rather focus on that.

If poets want to discuss the class struggle as it relates to poetry, then we're ready, willing and very able.

Yours,
Chris

8:27 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

What are you doing for the class struggle, Chris? 9-5 I mean?

8:52 AM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Read the post again, Gary.

9:07 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

Chris, I've already read what you were doing 9-5 in the past. My question is how you make your living now. I'm interested in what decision you made with respect to class consciousness in terms of your real-world working life. How what you do during the day, for money, affects the class struggle.

9:17 AM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:28 AM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Last comment deleted because it was riddled with typos.

Gary, I apologize for the flippancy of that last remark.

Suffice it to say that I'm a lowly grunt in a publishing company and that considerable surplus value is extracted from my labor. The books that couldn't get out the door without my labor rake in about a million a year and I make less that 40K.

I'm not going to enter into this particular line of discussion because we're all "up to our necks in compromise". I'm sure I could find some nasty little skeletons in the closet of the admirable organization you work for.

Nowhere do I pretend to be political activist in the classic sense of the term.

Yours,
Chris

9:41 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

I'm talking about real-world decisions that people using the idea of "social change" as some kind of poetic benchmark in poetry make in their actual day-to-day lives. I don't think you can avoid this line of discussion. Certainly not if you want to accuse others of stopping short of revolutionary consciousness.

10:14 AM  
Anonymous kyle said...

i'm confused as to your alternative.

what if a poet is google-scultping crude language from the bowels of the internet and using it to generate a more accurate voice for the 'social change'? is it still inherently flawed because it is using corporate algorithms? i guess this is a poor way of asking a larger question- is there a brightline for what makes the use of search-engines valid? and, is it possible for a poet to live both a poltiics and poetics, one completely seperate from the other?

if this is a manifesto, i sure wish more manifested.

10:23 AM  
Blogger stan said...

So, um, you're one of the Tamil Tigers? Like M.I.A. ? Is "M.I.A." part of the "We" you mention? She is pretty cool!!

So, as a Tamil Tiger, assumedly you're mad at the Flarf writers because they're not making any effort to overthrow the Sri Lankan government?

Just trying to understand the ins-and-outs of your stance, you tough-as-nails omelette cooking proletarian you. 'Cause you know, the revolution's gonna come one omelette at a time.

10:59 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

Yes & apparently the flarflist collective is somehow akin to the Sri Lankan Government in its clampdown on unrest. Dig Chris's:

"i think a few people might get something positive out of it, even if they don't dare admit it in public - or maybe especially if they don't dare..."

Imagine that! People everywhere are too terrified of the flarflist collective to speak their minds in public!

11:11 AM  
Blogger Jonathan said...

Is the royal "we" part of the revolutionary chic? It sounds pretentious as hell, "comrade."

11:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since I'm mentioned in Chris's post (I was surprised to see my name there, frankly), I suppose I'll say something, though it's just my take, of course, and Chris may well have a different one on things. But in regards to this Tamil Tigers thing, I think Gary and some other Flarfists are in a snit precisely because they "get" the move in Chris's post. In other words, Flarf here is giddily called out through a form of flarf: For Flarf is nothing if not an appropriation and ventriloquism of other voices. The difference between Chris Daniel's piece and most Flarf (hum de dum) is this: The Tamil Tiger(!)is speaking in a way that in no way mocks *her* consciousness or identity. On the other hand, Flarf operates (this is key to its aesthetic) via appropriation *as* mockery, however variously modulated, of others. It's a yuppie poetics because it is inherently arrogant and snooty.

Now, I can hear some folks yelling already: "But look at YOU and how you mock through your awful epigrams!"

To which I say, Yes, some of those do gently mock, but 'tis a mockery of different sort: a fair kind of mockery, open, healthy, and at bottom self-effacing to a fault. Flarf, though, is pompous, essentially cowardly mockery.

Just my two cents... Out of town for a funeral for a couple days now. Will check back.

Kent

11:46 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

Where did you get the idea that flarf is mocking anyone, Kent?

Take a look here, if you want to actually know what I'm doing with others' words & images:

http://garysullivan.blogspot.com/2006/03/elsewhere-2-cover-image-progress.html

It's obviously Chris who is in a snit: How else to explain a five page, inaccurate, name-calling rant?

11:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought I'd re-post this, too, since it has some relation to the discussion: a reply by me to Anne Boyer in the discussion related to Chris's review further down of Epigramititis. It also concerns another work that Gary first attacked on this blog: Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz. When the discussion moved over to Elsewhere and various people began to question Gary's take on the book, he deleted his original post and all the comments related to it. Well, Viva la Democracia Popular, as they say...
(see below):

[I replied to Anne Boyer]
Anne,

This is a good comment. I'd like to offer a couple thoughts.

First, so far as I know, I was the first person to publicly challenge in a developed way the rather creepy, stalking sexism of the "crush lists" (and other quasi-predatory displays) at Jim Behrle's blog. This was a post appearing maybe close to two years ago now, at the Possum Pouch. I pointed out there how bizarre it was that the openly pornographic and brazenly libelous nature of Behrle's space was given encouragement by so many men and women post-avantists. A number still do so (witness Jordan Davis, Gabe Gudding, and Jonathan Mayhew, for example). This post of mine was later taken down at Behrle's request, wherein he offered to delete certain things on his blog in return. Of course, after this was done, he then went right back to his clearly pathological behaviors (most recently exposing himself in blog comments boxes), cheered on, as usual, by a fairly definable clique within the blogging community. Watch what happens after this reply to you is noticed...

Anyway, just briefly, I'd like to remark on the following comment you make regarding the Ange Mlinko poem in Lyric Poetry after Auschwitz, which you cite as example of a questionable tinge to my work:

"...(or in the case of the "parody" of Mlinko in that one book -- a woman exists as an "airy poetess", symbolic of frivolity while men -- Johnson -- take on the SERIOUS issues)."

Here I honestly think you miss some things. One of them is that it isn't Milinko in this poem who is turned into an airy poetess, but me! Please read it again. There is simply nothing there that would support this particular interpretation of yours. And this poem is representative of other pieces in that book (as it is of the epigrams book), where I openly bracket and undermine various features of my own "poetic authority," not least my (admittedly) ingrained desire to project my masculinity.

Yes, there are a few poems in the epigrams that remark on the "attractiveness" or personality of women poets. But there are also a number of epigrams that remark on the attractiveness and personality of various men poets as well. In fact, there is probably more flirtatious commentary on males in that book than there is on women! So I think this issue of "objectification" you mention needs to be considered in the context of the book as a whole and in terms of the conceptual nature of the bigger intervention into the "field" that it wishes to make. The book is, indeed, very much about objectification: that is, it's partly about the ways poets today, avant and mainstream (if there is a qualitative difference anymore), theatrically offer themselves and their work to be objectified. This is a big issue with many facets, but the epigrams might be more fruitfully considered from this perspective, rather than as individual "poems."

OK, that's enough from me for now. But I wanted to offer a few thoughts in response.

Kent

11:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gary said:

>Where did you get the idea that flarf is mocking anyone, Kent?

Wow. Now things are REALLY getting funny.

Kent

11:59 AM  
Blogger Gary said...

Kent, read the post I pointed you to, and then come back and tell me I'm mocking anyone.

12:05 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Or, maybe this will be easier, I'll just post it here. Let me know where you see "mocking" please:

The second issue of Elsewhere, "Coney Island Avenue," was inspired by Nada Gordon's poem of the same name. Her poem riffs off much of the signage and other sights, largely expressive of Coney Island Avenue's immigrant population. A brief excerpt:

"Transfer d'Argent a Haiti. International calling center penetrates global immodesty/ borne from Iraq and Siam, suspended by telephone wires from moons in alternate cultural/ systems: electrical analysis of pistachios, desi kulfi, tortillas/ at the Good Luck Deli. BANIA. Masjid Um ul Quaa, Siberian Pelman corp."

In August I started taking photographs of things seen from street level, working my way up Coney Island Avenue from the Boardwalk, where the street ends, to Caton Place, where it begins (a couple blocks from Nada & my apartment).

Halfway through the process, I realized that the book wasn't going to work as a simple illustration of the poem. The poem is part of Nada's manuscript "Folly," which includes quite a bit of language from her former English as a Second Language students, a lot of Googled material (mostly dealing with gender and/or intercultural issues), as well as her own writing.

I'm allowing myself now to take language for the comic from anywhere in the manuscript, concentrating on that which seems to address in some way issues particular to immigrant culture, such as how one navigates foreign environments--literal environments, and, of course, language, which is on a basic level a kind of environment.

I'm using this particular sentence from the book as a kind of
touch-stone:

"If one who control all sound do not accept other people to making sound, it would be a very boring society."

I love that quote, which is from a paper written by one of Nada's ESL students. It's probably going to be the first sentence in the comic.

In laying the comic out, I'm paying attention to a number of specific
constraints:

1. Images must generally fall sequentially in order of where they were photographed, moving northward up Coney Island Avenue. The immigrant population on Coney Island Avenue is very diverse, but more or less clustered as such, moving south to north:

Russians
Turks
Israelis & Jews from Russia, Poland, Ukraine, and elsewhere in the former Soviet Union
Pakistanis, Kashmiris, and Punjabis
People from the West Indies
Mexicans and other Central Americans

Many of the photos I'm selecting to draw from are expressive of these immigrant populations--their signage, what they're selling, their events posters, the people themselves.

2. Each two-page spread must include at least one "street scene." I found that this helps to ground the comic in some reality that people find comforting. One of the problems with the first issue of Elsewhere was its seeming chaotic or random nature. It wasn't put together randomly, but those who didn't like it generally complained that it simply wasn't something they were willing or able to follow. I'm wondering if I make connections this time based on literal geography and population, if that may help a few more people follow the comic, however abstract its narrative.

3. I'm choosing many images simply for their interesting textures. This is essentially a way of enacting the idea of "other people to making sound"--thinking of sound as a kind of texture. So I'm playing with the textures of sound and image, how they might work most interestingly, or resonantly, together.

The finished book will be 24 pages. I want

12:08 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Oops, cut off the last sentence. Not that it adds anything, but here you go:

The finished book will be 24 pages. I want to print it in early May, in time to bring it to MoCCA Fest in June.

12:09 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

The one time I reviewed a "flarf" poem I read it and thought it was anything but.

I'm not saying there is no such thing as an obvious flarf poem, but I think the critical backstory has been foregrounded to such an extent that we've lost control of what is actually going on in the poem.

I find a lot of things said about flarf to be rather annoying -- and I was shocked to see that there was going to be some kind of conference organized in New York around the "flarf movement" or whatever. The commodification was so damn rapid, I didn't know what to think.

If there is something "in" flarf, I think it is in the appropriation of uneducated speech. There is no other position an educated poet can be in w/r/t to that, I think. There is no approach to working class authenticity. Even a poet who has -- as you do -- W/C credentials loses them when she goes and becomes a poet.

Poetry, in other words, begins by alienating the writer from their background. The work of poetry is to recover that with all the power of rhetoric and trope.

12:10 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Simon, it's not a conference, it's a festival. There'll be readings, plays, and films. Terrible, I know, to want to get a bunch of poets together to read and perform together. So ... "commodified."

12:17 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

Was it a symposium? Perhaps a colloqium.

I get that flarf arose in a very organic way, and I totally respect that.

But when I see something like this (all taken from the announcement):

when I see as a title:

"THE PUBLIC RECEPTION OF FLARF"

All I see is some self-promoters trying to generate some kind of legitimacy for themselves. Then I go on:

"Discussion about Flarf has been broadcast by the BBC and published in magazines such as The Village Voice, The Nation, Constant Critic, Jacket, and Rain Taxi."

I think: "must... establish... mainstream... credentials..." (the BBC! Imagine!) People are talking about us! We must exist!

Yes, commodified. Or at least, in as much as nobody wants to pay for our commodity, an attempt to appear as a commodity, as something "talked about", as something controversial.

Have a reading, great, do it. Get a gang together, hurrah. Do it do it. But when I read

"Award-winning experimental ensemble Medicine Show hosts the celebrated and controversial Flarflist Collective for three nights"

I hear only the rhetoric of cable TV segements generating their own buzz.

Was the announcement an ironic, un-P.C. intervention? I don't think so.

12:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The real point here is that calling yourself "Comrade Daniels" is basically equivalent to wearing a big sign that says, "I'm an idiot."

-dc

12:28 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

I'll say this again: I have nothing against people writing "flarf" poems, nor do I care that there is some kind of movement around the term. Of the people I read, a number of them have gone out on a limb and declared themselves for flarf. I think Drew is awesome.

I loved Lara Glenum's manifesto. I think poets could write more of them. I would go to a reading of the "anti-reals" just as I would go to a flarf reading if it were in Chicago.

But the way in which flarf has been inserted into discussions, and the way in which some people talking about flarf reflexively refer to those discussions, reminds me of the PR submarine.

12:37 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Simon: So, we should have that reading, but then not publicize it in any way, assuring a complete lack of audience?

Ever read any of the readings announcements on the Poetics List? Or read the blurbs on the back of anyone's books? Or the "bios" in any literary magazine?

Why is this instance somehow notable? We are, after all, hoping for some kind of audience: many of the poets are flying from out of town to get here.

Why is that a problem for you?

12:40 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

I think our comments might have passed in the aether: I think I've been clear about the ways in which that announcement rubbed me entirely the wrong way.

There are two senses in which you can "make a name". You can make a name, or you can make a name for yourself. The first is fine, the second is PR.

Following the flarf discussions on the blogs, I see the second becoming prominent.

Please don't create strawmen. Did I say "don't promote the reading"? No. I pointed out the way in which that festsival was promoted was hooking into a completely unanalysed rhetoric of PR.

Tell us who's reading. Show us their work. Tell us what flarf is. All fine.

I fucking hate the blurbs on the back of the book. I see them as a necessary evil. The only recent blurb I cared about was Judy Butler on Josh Clover, and only because she clearly was doing it without any idea of how silly the whole process has become.

12:44 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Simon, take a look at your own blog. You are Rhubarb Is Susan, aren't you? (If I'm wrong, my apologies.)

First, it's a site for "flash reviews." Did you read the article in Harpers by the guy who invented flash mobs?

What's up with the sidebar of "important" poets? Isn't that a form of legitimizing your taste? As a reviewer?

What about this language you use to "describe" books, poets, and poetry:

"a major new voice"

"ultimately stunning work"

"one of the most important matriarchs of contemporary writing"

Do I need to go on? Because I could, because your blog is filled with this sort of legitimizing, promotional language.

12:47 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

Yes, I am. I identify myself pretty clearly. I have no idea who you are, your blogger profile is hidden.

You are clutching at straws by suggesting that my use of the term "flash review" is related in any way to "flash mobs".

I list poets I like in the sidebar. Sappho and James Merrill going to blurb my next fucking book in return.

My blog exists to draw attention to poets I respect and admire. Read the damn reviews.

You've done nothing here but create strawmen to knock down. First you told me that calling a festival a conference was a mistake of the first order. Then you told me that I hated the very idea of the poetry reading.

Then you told me that, while I might be in favor of readings, these readings should never be promoted.

Finally, you told me that my practice of reviewing poets and drawing attention to their work was poisoned by "legitimizing, promotional, language".

None of these has any bearing on what I am asking you to do which is to stop and look at the way the promotion of flarf has moved from showing people cool new work into some kind of weird PR juggernaut.

Suits make a corporate comeback.

12:54 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

And speaking of legitimizing: What's up with the Tamil Tiger image, anyway? Why doesn't that annoy you more than promotional language for an event? It's every bit an attempt at self-legitimization, no matter what Kent Johnson says.

Chris is *using* that image as street cred.

I find that much more appalling than any blurb or event announcement I've ever read.

12:54 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

It's ironic. It's clearly over the top. It's wrong. It's un-P.C..

The ways in which flarf is starting to be promoted, however, are anything but.

Look, I don't know why I am flipping out here. I was annoyed by your response to what you presumably were annoyed by -- a parenthetical remark about the festival. I am sorry for seeming to denigrate that. I praise people trying to do poetry, bring it to a public.

But I think I'm clear on what aspects of that bother me seriously.

12:58 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Simon, please read your language, what's on your blog. I don't care that you've written it; honestly. (The Tamil thing is another matter, but that's not you.)

I'm just pointing out that it is every bit as legitimizing and promotional as the language used in the, yes, *promotional material* for the flarf festival.

That's all.

12:58 PM  
Blogger Thomas Basbøll said...

Gary, I still don't understand why you don't take all of this in stride. Why can't Flarf just be an indifferently corporate, anti-revolutionary, PR-savvy, techno-commodity fetish and let the quality of the poems speak for themselves. Why these worries. I think Chris hit it (himself?) on the head when he said the poems evade criticism (of this sort): like water off a swan suit, I like to say. He can't touch the poems.

For the record, I like Rhubarb a lot, and I share Simon's sense of the movement-hype getting annoying (but I sometimes do contribute to it, I know). All he said was that he didn't like the aesthetics of the advance hype on the NY gathering. I don't like the aesthetics of pretty much any gathering. It surprised me that the Flarf promotional material was so uncool. Then I thought it might be intentional, and at that point, I thought, hey, this is where it gets out of my depth and all this might be a search-and-replace job from the New Yorker or whatever.

1:04 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

I don't know what to say here.

I am assuming the reason this discussion has had so little substance is that you are the same Gary who wrote the announcement.

I've never been in a position to have to promote a reading or something huge like a three day festival. (Well, except when I was in college.)

I've been attacking that same piece. Maybe I am just being naieve. Also, and I think I've said this enough now, I don't think this reflects badly on the people involved in reading.

The work I do on my blog is very different from blurbs. I want to engage people, I want to talk with them, show them things I like, make them think and get them to make me think.

That said, maybe I should just take a chill pill. As someone who feels pretty much permanently on the outside of these things, I react badly when I feel further excluded from the discussion by being told, e.g., that what's important about flarf is that a discussion about it has been broadcast on the BBC.

1:09 PM  
Blogger sinlechuga said...

Hi Gary,

Your comic project doesn't sound un-PC at all. Your postings on Silliman's blog didn't either -- in fact you've been positioning yourself lately as very multi-culti PC (e.g. your statment that attacks on flarf are coming from a "western" critique). I don't mean this as an attack or anything. But I'm wondering if your upcoming project is "flarf", as it's been branded by you and Mike and others, or if it's just work done by someone associated with the flarf listserv.

My understanding, from Kasey's blog and elsewhere, was that not everything done by flarfists is considered flarf (he calls much of it "post-flarf") -- that it had to be awful in some way to be appropriately 'flarfy'. So i'm wondering here if you still stand by your original definition of flarf as an Un-PC poetics, or if it's now been expanded to include anything that those on the flarf listserv create.

This should help clarify all the arguments going on. If you still stand by the definitions Mike collected for the Flarf files, then it doesn't really make sense for you to use your comic project as an example of something that contradicts Chris', or anybody else's, arguments on the problematics of flarf's appropriation of 'drivel' -- your description of it would classify it as not-flarf. Do you see what I'm getting at? It comes across like you want the marketing angle of an Un-PC poetics with a PC justification in case anyone calls you on it.

So that maybe the issue is really that there are two flarfs: the social circle being the first, and the brand that everyone talks about being the second, and that arguments against the latter are responded to with examples of the former, even though these are distinct uses of the term "flarf" (one social, the other aesthetic). As if flarfists appreciate the publicity of the Un-PC brand flarf, but don't want to be held to it as encompassing their individual poetics and intentions -- which would explain all the contradictory claims being made for it lately (Nada disagreeing with Tim Peterson's claims on Silliman's blog, for example, or the discrepency between your recent justifications for flarf and your earlier claims posted on the flarf files).

If this is the case, there's really no reason to talk about flarf as a coherent aesthetic movement -- it seems more like flarf is being used to mean "my personal poetics" by those associated with the flarf listserv, that it's just a term among friends meant to convey more or less 'poetry'.

In which case a reverse-appropriation seems to have have occurred -- 'flarf' being subsumed by the larger poetic landscape as if it was always just regular poetry. I've read Petroleum Hat, and personally I don't think it would look out of place next to a copy of Dean Young (and I don't mean this as a knock against either Drew Gardner or Dean Young), nor would Jordan Davis' Million Poems Journal look out of place in David Lehman's compendium of post-NY School poets at the end of his Last Avant Garde book (again, not a knock against Davis or Lehman or the NY School).

Anyway maybe you can clarify here.

Best
d

1:13 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Hello, all. I'm in the middle of a very crazy day at work - two deadlines (Friday) held up due to various problems with XML composition engines, so I've not been able to pay attention until now, for which I apologize. And now I must apologize again immediately, for having to get back to work, but I'll be back, hopefully this evening. I might have to work late.

But I am paying attention, in snatches, whenever I have the chance to look in.

Yours,
Chris

1:19 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

You're right, Thomas. But I like Chris, and I find what he's saying so polarizing & offbase that it just hurts. Largely b/c I do like him. If I didn't, it wouldn't matter to me what he thought or said. (I've mostly avoided getting into comments fields arguments about flarf, except for one day on Ron's blog.)

The promotional material is totally uncool, I agree. It was cobbled together from other promo material, but that is not to say that it was meant with any particular irony, however much I might dislike it.

I've been sending it out to places here in NYC simply in the no doubt vain hope of getting at least some coverage of the event. If this was something we were doing in a cafe, that would be one thing, but we're doing it in a theater & they expect us to have an audience. Anyway, this is part of my lame attempt at trying to get one beyond the usual poetry crowd.

We actually had a flarf festival in 2002, and the "promotional" material I sent out then was totally flarfy: "Angry about frozen chunks of urine falling from the sky?" (Etc.)

It was well-attended -- at least, for an event in a cafe. But it was all poets, as the audience for most poetry readings are. I want to see what will happen if people unfamiliar with any of this stuff will show up: How will they respond? Will they be bored? Freaked out? Will they like it? Be confused? Etc.

Anyway, that can't happen unless I hold my nose -- as I've been doing for the past month -- and try to get some sort of coverage for the event that might draw people other than the usual crowd in.

Sorry that was so long & boring.

1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Simon,

You've said some great things here. Good on you. Most of this crap tends to go unchallenged. And you are right: Strawman/ad hominem argument tends to be the circling-wagon strategy of this "hip" group whenever it's challenged (go over to Gary's blog and look in the comments box now--hilarious).

Why do you not have an email on your blog? There's some great stuff there, by the way.

And Gary, et. al. as you seem to have missed the irony:

Tamil Tiger :: Flarf Paper Tiger!

Now I really have to leave for this funeral!

I'll be thinking of you...

Kent

1:20 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Oh, please, Kent. "Ad hominem" attacks, circling the wagons, and promotional crap is all you've been up to for years.

1:28 PM  
Blogger StandardSchaefer said...

While it's true that leftist can sometimes get caught up in the who is more radical than who game, this is not- contrary to Gary's take- one of those moments. Daniels is being quite open and generous about how we're all compromised or falling short of some revolutionary ideal. However, Gary still doesn't actually address the issue of sexism, racism, classism or (most important to me) the type of hip insiderish irony that governs so much of flarf. Not only that, flarfists never seriously address the uselfulness of vanguards of any sort which is always the issue when groups come together to garner distinction. Most troubling too is the accusation that Chris is inaccurate when Gary has him labeled an academic and any angry white male which suggest that he utterly beholden to vanguardists like Bernstein, who used the angry white man thing against Kent. It's also a sign that Gary's not willing to make a serious consideration of what Daniels actually says.

Gary's post is particularly silly to me when he starts in on how he works daily on the part of the oppressed so could not possibly be unconscious in the way Daniels describes. Daniels, however, as a working man, one who works only for his wage, is somehow more selfish and compromised.

re: Revolutionary Consciousness

It's not now and should not be what it once was in a handfull of places. The indigenous movements in South America, for example, are not devoted to claiming state power for themselves. Revolutionary thougt is, like art, always in transition. But most poets know little except what they learn in school or in some theory about what is actually going on. Gary's notion of revolution is the usual reduction and that makes Daniel's call for poetic imagination, as well as revolutionary imagination all the more urgent.

Daniel's has always attacked American's cultural narcissism. It's that limit that makes the reaction claim "which freedom fighter did you arm today" seem so myopic. Daniel's rightly takes his cues on politics from actual social movements, emphasizing all sorts of tactics and debate, not some leftover school book bolshevism of the sort implied by Mssr. Sullivan's remarks.

Oh yeah sure the rhetoric and photo are sometimes a bit much, but Daniels is one of the most open-hearted people I know, and some of his ideas are actually worth thinking about.

The very compromised Standard Schaefer

1:31 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Standard, I'll take Chris completely seriously when he really is being open and generous. Maybe he'll give it a shot tonight after work.

What "cues" is Chris taking from real social movements, by the way, in his ad hominem attack on flarf?

1:53 PM  
Blogger Thomas Basbøll said...

Thinking about it, it seems to me that the charges of racism and sexism are very different than the charge of classism, at least as I understand it here. In fact, these charges are constructed on contradictory reading strategies.

The possible sexism and (though I'm trying to think of an example) racism would be apparent in so far as the poem is taken to simply channel the views of certain sources. But the charge of "classism", I think, could be levied only on the "mockery" reading, i.e., that the source is quoted in a somehow ironic manner.

Surely an argument has to be made for when to apply these two very different strategies (channel vs. mockery). The cue must be identified.

When I read Flarf I just work with the words on the page, and make no assumption about the sources. When I do Google for them, it only confirms their lack of critical utility.

I don't think irony is a good category for understanding Flarf.

1:53 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Hi Dan,

I have to run off to meet some other comics artists in a few minutes, but wanted to briefly respond to the definition of flarf.

I realize that people are very focused on the un-PC aspect of it. But, that's just part of it. Stumbling, fucked up, and I don't recall all the other words I used. But for me, the key word was never un-PC, but *wrong*.

That's admittedly a very open-ended "definition," and maybe not very helpful. But it's what I think about when I do things.

In the world of comics, non-narrative is wrong. It's also wrong, or at the very least problematic, and I mean this in art generally, to focus on "the other."

The comic is fairly stumbling & fucked up ... the language and the images. That's true of the first issue, too. (You never sent your address; I wanted to send you a copy if you want to see it.)

There, the focus was on Japanese- created imagery and language, although English language. That's not, at least as I understand it, PC to do. Or, again, it's at least problematic. (Juliana Spahr wrote about the problematic nature of that issue on her blog.)

The purpose of the comic is not to mock the Japanese or Japan or anyone's use of English. But rather to explore it & use it as poetic material.

I do think of the first issue as completely flarfy. The second issue I'm less sure about because I don't have the language all chosen yet. But, my sense is, it will be.

Anyway, maybe this addresses some of the racism stuff Standard is getting at above, too. It's not racist, or at least not intented to be so. It's just -- not what you're supposed to do. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I have to go. Let me know if you want a copy of that first issue. I'm at gpsullivan@hotmail.com

2:19 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Frantic note before I have to get back to work. Two books going to the printer today, damn....

Accusing me of ad hominem because I made a joke that totally cracked up my buddies, and that a lot of people apparently didn't get, won't cut it. It's a rather problematical joke, sure, I'm not denying it.

Nowhere do I call out anybody by name. I do not once mention the gender or the ethnicity of a single flarfiste. I even qualify my statements: "at least some of the time", etc.

I chose the most self-condemning quotes from very well-known public statements and I built my case around them.

I'm waiting for someone to actually read and think about the post and and prove me wrong about my main point.

More soon.

Yours,
Chris

2:34 PM  
Blogger Thomas Basbøll said...

I'll quickly repeat my argument, though I'm not sure it goes to your main point:

In order to support the charge of racism you have to read the poems in a way that runs counter to way you would have to read them in order to support the charge of classism.

Also, I think it can be easily shown that Flarf does not involve an opinion about anyone's inner lives. It arranges surfaces, that is all. (You can see this by locating the sources and comparing them to their composition in the poem you are reading.)

The very idea of an "inner life" strikes me as oppressive. It may be the single greatest effect of what I imagine you call Capital.

3:08 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

OK, Thomas, fair enough, surfaces.

How is the concept "inner life" oppressive? Are you saying that there's no such thing?

By "inner life" I mean a person's thoughts, desires, loves, hurts, agonies, joys, instincts, frustrations, memories, shame, fear, pulsions AND how a person deals with all those things in daily life. Of course, class society is going to effect the inner life of people.

Are you suggesting that you yourself have no "inner life"? Not an accusation, but a simple question.

Yours,
Chris

3:34 PM  
Blogger sinlechuga said...

Gary,

Your distinction between 'wrong' and 'un-PC' makes sense -- and I understand that your primary motivation is to do what's considered 'wrong', and that this in itself is not all that interesting; rather, you're interested in what it might produce. You're not transgressing to transgress, but to see what comes out of this transgression. Is this right?

But in the example you provide, what is 'wrong' is that what you're doing is 'un-PC', that is, it engages race in a way that the mainstream media would consider inappropriate [this is based on how I'm reading your description above]. So the distinction isn't really clarifying things. Anyway, in this case, i'd need to see the comic to get a better understanding of what effects this kind of transgression is producing -- so i'll hit you up on that offer.

Best
d

3:40 PM  
Blogger StandardSchaefer said...

Gary,

re: social movements. I'm just referring to a whole host of things Chris has written. I think the Tamil Tiger thing makes plenty of sense if you know Chris and where he's coming from and it would be funny to anyone who understands the context. But you know, as a high flarfster, you can't really be expected to be fenced in my little things like context.

That doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING he has or will say. But I try to pay attention to things like "Some flarf" and his other qualifying statements. Then I don't get so worked up.

But I'm not sure anything is ad hominem in the blogosphere.

And I do agree with Dan Hoy, the burden of proof is on you guys to show the value of the transgressive nature of flarf.

Personally, for those of us who often work with "non-sense" the flarf brand seems an impediment, the same way anyone who is experimental (not the best word, I admit) is often a language writer, thus obscuring the more interesting parts where the definition doesn't hold.

I would be curious to know from anyone if there is such a thing as 'just the words on the page' as Baseboll claims.

4:52 PM  
Blogger François said...

I don't really care about flarf. It amused me at first and I enjoyed reading "Mars Needs More Terrorists." Now, don't you think you spend too much time arguing over something no one, with the exception of poetry bloggers, knows about?

5:15 PM  
Blogger Simon said...

We need a name for Francois's rhetorical move -- something along the lines of "everyone who makes a comment regarding issue X, with the exception of me, is ridiculous because issue X is trivial and even its triviality is trivial."

5:24 PM  
Blogger François said...

How about "Some people spend too much time on the internet, including me"?

5:32 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

François! Touché!

I haven't answered your email because work has been so crazy -- I worked over weekend. But I will, soon. Much to talk about.

Yours
C

6:12 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Simon, touché to you, too!

6:12 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

Chris, you're being disingenous, and you know it. Your whole post is filled with ad hominem attacks. I needn't list them; they're obvious, but how about the part where you accuse us of, how was it, using the work we sent to the flarflist solely to get ahead in the literary world?

Um, that's character assassination, hello?

Your "main idea" is doltish. That's why I haven't responded to it. Read my work, preacherman, and THEN tell me all the ways I'm sinning.

Until then, I'm not going to waste a second more on this sad & rather telling little inquisition of yours.

6:45 PM  
Blogger Gary said...

But, Dan, I will answer you:

Yeah, I think your sum-up is fairly accurate. Transgress might be too strong of a word. It's not one I've ever used myself. (I've also never used "racist" "sexist" "classist" or even "bad" to desribe flarf, fyi, for what it's worth. Those things don't particularly interest me. I'm not sure why Standard & Co. are so off on those words; I guess they're just easy cudgels with which to hit someone. Or they're sound bytes. In any event, I've never used any of them to describe what I'm doing -- so I don't know where they come from, except un-PC -- but that's just a simplified reading of what un-PC might actually mean or encompass.

By PC I don't mean not spewing racial epithets; I mean acting through rote social codes rather than literally thinking something through, or at least exploring it, even something thorny.)

I personally think of flarf as exploring what's inappropriate rather than being transgressive. The introduction to How to Proceed in the Arts is a meditation on that. I wish I had a copy of that book myself, or I'd send you one along with the comic. I'll try and find the intro somewhere and get it to you somehow.

Anyway, I know there are some contradictions between what we say & whatever the work finally is; there always is, in anyone's work. It's not science, it's art, is my probably lame excuse.

So far as Standard's assertion that any burden of proof of the value of blah blah blah, I'm not going back to reread him, that's true of any artist at any time. And the burden of proof is in the work. And not everyone gets it, or bothers to. And life goes on. So what?

I might say that the burden of proof is on Standard to prove why his Regression to Mean, that awful poem he wrote in the wake of Katrina, is worth anyone's bothering with for any reason whatsoever. I think it's confusing, poorly written, and mostly unintentionally grotesque. It gives the reader nothing, aside from a mild case of the giggles, as in "OMFG YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" way, sort of a "Tay Bridge Disaster" effect. (A couple lines: "But cataclysmal as escape is a maligned science." "Only asymptotes and uncertain disinfectants
Like consciousness and bones stuffed with wet met." And so on. I'm sure Standard & his pals think this is terribly important. Just as I'm sure there were fans of the Tay Bridge poem.)

It's a good example of everything I wanted to avoid in starting to think about flarf. Something bland, abstract, horribly pretentious, written by someone with probably good intentions, but either no real ability to pull it off, or more likely stifled from doing anything genuinely interesting in the wake of Katrina, that really addresses it & the politics & racism & classism etc. that were obviously responsible, because, my god, doing something interesting with it, or really *digging*, getting somewhere with it, would be inhumane on some level? I mean, I'm guessing that was Standard's problem here. That or he's just not up to the task of writing passable poetry, which seems doubtful. More it looks like the result of him just trying too hard to convince us that this is all terribly important and well-meant.

Here's more from the poem:

"Mercury rules the calm funnel
Like islands a lifetime around the room
Or a couple of days in a city that is always pouring
But roused on acetate and a taste for exploit
Wind is a very cruel signature obliterating the fretwork."

You can almost hear him enunciating every last drop of pretentiousness out of it: Wwwhindt is a veeerrrrrry cru-ehl sig-nah-tchure." Now, maybe I'm wrong, and it's not Standard's desire to show the world how much he cares for the Katrina victims in poetry that makes this poem stink as bad as it does, and it's just simply a matter of the fact that it's pretentious. But I'm guessing that has something to do with it.

Anyway, that poem is pretty emblematic of everything we wanted to get away from on the flarflist.

7:36 PM  
Blogger sinlechuga said...

Gary I've already got a copy of How to Proceed in the Arts on the way, no worries.

re: "Only asymptotes and uncertain disinfectants
Like consciousness and bones stuffed with wet met."

I think that last word is supposed to be meat -- in any case i'm really into this line of poetry, and the entire contents of Standard's book 'Water and Power' (assembled out of L.A. history and cinema and worth checking out, I think), but i also don't consider the use of abstraction to be synonymous with pretension.

As a counterweight, I do think Deer Head Nation is a pretentious turd in the water, all attempts at internet-relevancy and crass edge to the contrary. It just reads like some dorky adult trying to come off as cool to a bunch of teenagers. Like how in church youth groups they try to make Jesus cool.

But this may just be a matter of taste.

8:18 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Whew, what a day... made one deadline, missed another. Got home about 8:30 after a 10-hour day.

Gary, it's you who are being disingenuous, playing the nice guy who "loves" me, or whatever it was you wrote, after what you left in my inbox this morning.

The truth of the matter is that for a long, long time, you've felt indifferent to me. Folks who like each other drop each other a line once and a while, don't they, call each other on the phone, have little email chats? We haven't done that in years, have we? I'm not sure why you broke off all contact with me, but I don't mind. These things happen all the time, you know?

And now here you are getting all stern and moralistic and even vaguely threatening, all puffed-up like any self-important petty-bourgeouis bureaucrat! I don't mind that either. I think it's funny. You're incapable of saying anything that makes me feel bad.

I don't even mind you calling my main idea "doltish" because I know you can't answer my argument any other way.

You don't even know what argumentum ad hominem is.

You think it means calling someone names, but it's really a way to attack someone's argument without addressing the argument. "Well, he would say that" is the classic ad hominem attack.

Your characterization of me on your blog is classic argumentum ad hominem. You call me "isolated", when I'm anything but. I just don't spend a whole lot of time in any poetry scenes in the USA. All my shit happens in Brasil, where I'm actually quite famous. And I have the respect and friendship of some very fine poets, indeed, in the US, too. I don't need to be a player in a visible US poetry scene to do the work that means so much to me. Which is exactly why I can afford to say the things I say about poetry and poets in the US, by the way. I have nothing to lose.

I suspect that what you really mean when you call me "isolated" is: "insignificant to me and my pals." I wonder if you realize how little of a problem that is for me. I mean, what can you do? Keep me from getting published? Say mean things about me and people I love on your blog? Go for it, if it makes you feel better.

I scrupulously avoid any mention of gender or ethnicity in my post, except for the Tamil Tiger joke (which, as I've said, is problematic, but others have explained it pretty well for you, I think).

On your blog, you make mention of the fact that I'm a white male. Hey, you're a white male too. You're a white male bourgeois liberal. I'm a white male commie. If the whiteness means something to you, that's your problem. Politics means much, much more to me.

Then you mistake anger for bitterness. That's no surprise, coming from someone as clueless as you. Imagine, trying to get me into a pissing match about what kind of fucking jobs we have when you have no idea about my life, my friends, what we do for each other. You have absolutely no idea and I'd rather keep it that way. I'm a private person. I'm a modest person. Anybody who knows me will tell you that. When I get angry, I do rive. But I'm not about to start talking about my private life to score some kind of soft-headed liberal credibility with anybody.

Finally, you're one of those people who calls anything you can't understand "academic". Well, Gary, as it happens, I have only three friends that I'd characterize as close who are academics. Two of them are still graduate students, and one is just barely out of grad school. I'm not an academic. I'man artist. I'm just really interested in some things you've never paid attention to, and vice versa.

Attacking the assumptions of a group isn't argumentum ad hominem. It's not ad hominem to say "wealthy conservatives look down on poor people", for example. That's called "fallacy of hasty generalization". I may be guilty of that to a certain extent in my post, but I have not attacked anybody personally.

Like any good bourgeois liberal, you perceive it as an attack against you and your friends, when it is clearly an attack against certain attitudes in a lot of flarf poems and some of the most well-known statements about flarf. You have no rational answer to it and so you react with what you think passes for icy disdain in public, and you spew forth venom in private.

I was so intense about it because I wanted people to notice. People have noticed. Wheee! Whether or not they're thinking about it, really thinking about it, is anybody's guess.

Come off it. Accusing a poet of self-promotion for advancement is like calling a horse a quadruped. It goes with the territory. It's hardly character assassination.

Every poet self-promotes for their own advancement to some extent. It's a given in our society. It's not the self-promotion that bothers me -- though apparently the very mention of it bothers you an awful lot, and you're so very good at promoting yourself and your work!

It's self-promotion bound up with an unthinking appropriation of things written by working people that bugs the shit out of me, and that's what I say in the post.

The truth of the matter is, I'm not interested in your work or your ideas about art. A lot of people like your work a lot, and like your ideas a lot, and that's great, both for you and for them. I'm happy for you and for those who derive pleasure from your work. Whether or not I find it deeply engaging is of absolutely no consequence to you or to anyone else. What you think about me and my work is also of little consequence.

I'm not interested in talking about anything but class, Gary. I'm interested in a very particular thing that I've noticed about flarf and flarfistes. It's something that makes me very angry, as anyone can tell. I want to talk about it with people. When I get out from under my job later on this week, I'll get back to it, if anybody's left to talk to. If there's no one left, well, no problem, none at all, I did what I could.

And now, still waiting for someone to prove me worng, I am going to collapse.

Yours,
Chris

10:32 PM  
Blogger Thomas Basbøll said...

I won't claim to have "proven" you wrong. But I did point out that you make at least two claims about Flarf which are based on contradictory assumptions about the relation of Flarf to its sources (in the cases where these are "trawled" from Google.)

You then grant this point (which was my main point) without assessing the consequences of doing so for the rest of your argument, ask what I think is at least partially a rhetorical question (I'll answer it partially), and then counter with an, well, oppressive question about *my* "thoughts, desires, loves, hurts, agonies, joys, instincts, frustrations, memories, shame, fear, pulsions AND how [I] deal with all those things in daily life," (i.e., whether or not I have those things ... are you serious?)

You then spend the rest of your time engaging at great length with what you see as irrelevant and essentially personal attacks on your position, only to re-assert that you are still waiting for someone to talk to you about "a very particular thing" that you see in Flarf.

In answer to your question: there is an inner life, and it is oppressive. What is especially oppressive is the demand that people (especially poets) and perhaps poems must have such lives. I have one. Like you, I am oppressed. I don't need my poetry to oppress me, mate.

Repeating (for the third time) the argument you claim no one is making because we're all too interested in your personal life:

Given the way Flarf looks on the page (which is where I hope you noticed the stuff that angered you), you can't get it to be both exploiting (i.e., stealing sentiments) and mocking (i.e., ridiculing sentiments) on the same interpretation. So you need a more detailed argument about what (in the poems) cues us to interpret different parts of the poems in these two different ways. Or what cues us to read one poem differently than another. Not saying there couldn't be such a cue: but you haven't done anything to make an argument here.

As it happens, I don't think there are any cues that allow us to (nor force us) to shift perspective in this way, which leads me to think that that the poems neither express nor comment on the sentiments of their sources. But *you* can prove *me* wrong there is you want.

PS (for Standard): a page is always a context. As I said, I emphasize the page not to the exclusion of everything else, but to draw attention away from the sources and onto the poem. The page reaches all the way up to the world (as you and I know it).

11:52 PM  
Blogger Berkeley Neo-Baroque Gang of One said...

Thomas,

The question about "inner life" was very simple. I really didn't understand what you were saying. If I came off as arch, I apologize.

The argument I've made is also very simple, elementary left politics. It has next to nothing to do with literary criticism. My argument, one might say, is grossly political.

I'm talking about social relationships in class society. I make no judgements about the worth of flarf per se as a process, though to some it obviously seems that I do.

Nor do I make judgements about whatever generative processes interest flarfistes. I exhort you and poets like you to "subvert the motherfucker". I mean it. But there is subversion and then there is subversion.

In relation to your own life, you seem to be able to see how capitalism is oppressive, at least to you. You feel oppressed. So do I. So do we all. Holy shit, do we ever.

But you still haven't shown me that you understand the intimate link between oppression and exploitation in class society or the kind of violence intellectuals can do to working people in class societies by furthering the ideological tactics of the ruling elites, even if unwittingly. Alas, many intellectuals work to support the ruling elite's "right" to rule in one way or another.

Subversion that doesn't give the rulng elite anything to worry about is sometimes known as "transgression". Maybe it can offend, but then what? Where do you go after you've managed to offend the likes of Dana Gioia?

Oh, by the way, I'm not an economist or a political scientist. I'm an artist. I wouldn't presume to be able to come up with a solution on my own and then tell everybody "how it's gonna be, come the revolution". Nobody can predict the future of human society (or of poetry, for that matter). But I think about what a humane society would look like. I think about it alot. I talk about it with my friends and I hope for it every day.

If you're interested in seeing someone actually trying to build an economic structure for an unexploitive, classless society, check out Michael Albert and his cohorts, over at Znet. They call their system-in-process "Parecon". Good stuff. Lots of debates with all kinds of people, most of it extremely informative (and transformative) and representing a wide range of left to far-left politics. It's a great start at a rational, workable transition out of capitalism. It's not as emanicipatory, not as worker-based as council communism, but it's a very good start.

Yours,
Chris

1:51 AM